Exploring the Path of History: Mark Mustian's Journey to Turkey and Syria

Speaker 1

[00.00.00]

And we followed the path that these caravans took when they, when they left, um, uh, left, you know, walked through the desert. Uh, so so you could you just imagine people walking this, you know, uh, you know, and having to camp out in the desert and that sort of thing. I mean, it was a, you know, it's a very, you know, it would have been difficult under any circumstances.

Speaker 2

[00.00.22]

Hello, and welcome to one off Travel Stories. I'm your host, Andrew Taverna. Here, each episode, I chat with someone about one of their favorite travel stories, that one story they've told countless times to friends and family around the dinner table. Today we're joined by Mark Musson. Mark is an author of three books, a lawyer by profession and a seasoned traveler, having traveled to over 90 countries. He's joining us today to tell us the story of his trip to Turkey and Syria in 2008. He did the trip as a means of research for his historical fiction novel The Gendarme, and had some amazing experiences along the way. With that said, let's jump into it and let Mark tell us more. Hey, Mark, welcome to the podcast.

Speaker 1

[00.01.11]

Yeah. Thanks, Andrew. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 2

[00.01.13]

Yeah. Great to have you. Thanks for making the time. I typically like to kick it off with, uh, just a simple question. Where are you? Where are you calling in from today? I'm

Speaker 1

[00.01.22]

in Tallahassee, Florida. Where it's a sunny, 60 degrees today. Pretty day.

Speaker 2

[00.01.29]

All right. You know, it's it's it's winter for those who are listening. So I think anyone in sort of the northern east, uh, won't, won't, uh, won't appreciate the temperature as much, but that sounds that sounds lovely. Um, I knew so you're home. I know this because of your website. Talks about Tallahassee a little bit, so, um, you know, thanks for calling in from home. Um, we're going to talk about, uh, travel story of yours in a little bit, but I'd love to get, you know, reading over your bio. You're you're a writer. You've been, uh, professionally a lawyer, but also you've managed to go to 90 plus countries traveling. Um, where is this? You know, where's the common thread between these things? Where does your passion for travel come from? And, and and your passion for writing and. Yeah. Um, tell me a little bit about Mark, I guess is what I'm saying.

Speaker 1

[00.02.23]

Well, you know, you know, a lot of it comes from when I, you know, growing up and my parents, uh, liked to travel. We were this was the era of cross-country car trips and the panel station wagon to. Right. Yeah. And, you know, out west. And so we had relatives in New Mexico. We grew up in Florida. And so we, you know, that that was the start of it. And I was sort of the navigator. I helped us, you know, follow the little triptych if you're old enough to remember what that what that was. And so yeah. So so you know, it kind of started with all that.

Speaker 2

[00.02.57]

Uh, you know, it's it's funny. Uh, I've asked that question or something similar over, over many podcasts and like, the amount of people who say, like, hey, I started traveling when I was young because of my parents. And whether that was local, as in regional road trips or something like that is very high. So, um, you know, I'm starting to learn if I want to instill this in my children someday. Hit the road while you're younger. Well,

Speaker 1

[00.03.25]

I know, and I've learned with my children. I think they all have the bug, although. And they're particularly happy to go if I pay for it, so. So there we go.

Speaker 2

[00.03.34]

Yeah, definitely. Um, and your books, actually. So, uh. And correct me if I'm wrong, I took a look. Historical fiction, three books. Um, and all based in, well, particular regions or places. So, um, and a couple of very interesting one, one, I know you're going to go into a little bit deeper, uh, Turkey, Syria, but then another in Brazil, and then your latest, I believe is actually in the US. Correct?

Speaker 1

[00.04.00]

Yeah. That's correct.

Speaker 2

[00.04.02]

Um, do you build off your travel experience, like choosing these places, choosing these stories? Was it based off, you know, like you've traveled to them? You kind of have an idea through that way? Or was it, you know, you've read about them or it was a historical point in time you're interested in what's your sort of process on that end?

Speaker 1

[00.04.20]

Well, it's a little bit more of the latter so. So I've, you know, I've sort of picked the idea or, you know, area of history or the world that I'm interested in. And uh, and then I've been fortunate enough to have been able to go there before the book is published. And that was the case with the with the first novel, which was set in Brazil. And, and also the case with the gendarme that was set in Turkey and Syria. So and, you know, I, you know, I did a lot of research. I but there's something about actually being there that's just, you know, I didn't change much, but I changed some stuff and I'm glad I got the opportunity to see it to do

Speaker 2

[00.04.56]

that. Yeah. Couldn't agree more. There's nothing quite like learning on the ground. Um,

Speaker 1

[00.05.02]

yeah. Even just meeting the culture and getting a feel for. I mean, what is it? You know, you can read, you know, forever and ever, but there's certain things that, hey, once you see them. Yeah, this is really is really special in a way I wasn't expecting.

Speaker 2

[00.05.15]

Yeah. That's wonderful. Um, you've been, uh, you're a lawyer. I'm curious how you managed to animate. I think, like a lot of people who listen. And myself, I've been struggling with this a little bit too. But balancing that travel with, you know, trying to keep up with your professional career. Have you have you managed to do that over the years?

Speaker 1

[00.05.36]

Well, I've been fortunate that my law partners are, you know, some of them like to travel too. So they were a little more forgiving than maybe others in terms of, uh, of me being gone. And I, you know, it has compressed sort of the trip. So, so, you know, a month long trip to, you know, Pakistan is sort of not in the cards. It's more, you know, eight or 10 or 2 weeks or, you know, maybe three weeks. But so I've had to sort of, you know, and I've done, you know, zoom calls from Korea and stuff where, you know, I'm still trying to, you know, deal with push off the law firm stuff for just a few more days. You know, so, so, so I've sort of done it and managed to do it that way and then and then personally. So I have three children and uh, and I sort of worked it out with my wife. Well, if I'm taking one of the children with me, she could kind of go along with this. So, so my son, I dragged him to Japan and Morocco and a bunch of places that, uh, that, you know, now he wants to. He's ready to go again.

Speaker 2

[00.06.33]

That's amazing. Yeah. Um, and I'm sure you've, you've maybe you've seen this, this sort of idea. Um, yeah, I think it's slowed down a little bit, but digital nomads have become a really big thing. We've I've spoken to a few people now, you know, from from different figuring out how to travel from different situations. I'll just put it that way. Some who've said like, hey, I'm just gonna take an a job or a profession, start a profession where I can travel and just be on the road the whole time, a little bit jealous of those others that have basically said, like, okay, I'm gonna just try to figure this out while I've got a job. I gotta say law. So I've got a I did, um, you know, my background was actually in political science. A lot of my friends ended up being lawyers. Uh, that's probably one of the hardest professions to figure out this balance. So, uh, you know, good on, good on you for for being able to do it.

Speaker 1

[00.07.29]

Yeah. Now, I mean, it's again, the type of law I practice is a little different. I rarely get in the courtroom. I mean, like once a year. And I have to have the judge help me because I don't know what I'm doing in those cases. So my wee mine is more contract law, so it's a little easier to deal with that. You know, I can bring the contracts with me, read them. You know, now I can email from anywhere in the world and, you know, respond to stuff and sort of just send it off till I get back. Uh, so so it's worked out okay.

Speaker 2

[00.07.58]

That's great. Well. So, um, we can we can start transitioning to to your story now and just as a, as a reminder that the podcast itself is focused on travel experience, a travel experience that have sort of sat with or, you know, stuck with you over the years, one of the very most memorable travel experiences and digging into that story in a bit longer form. Um, you've been to a lot of places, as I said earlier, 90 plus countries. So I'm guessing you've built up a lot of really interesting stories over the years. Um, yeah. Like tell like let's start off with just a little bit of background. Tell us, uh, tell us a little bit about the story you want to walk through today.

Speaker 1

[00.08.44]

Well, yeah. So I was going to talk about my travel to Turkey and Syria when my second book, which the title, which is The Gendarme, was published. And that book is a novel about the Armenian Genocide. And for those not familiar with that, that was something that happened at the start of World War One. Um, and my heritage is, you know, or at least I've been told, was Armenian way back, and I never knew much about it. And so I had done a bunch of research and decided, hey, I'm going to try to write this novel. And the the what happened during the genocide was that a number of the Armenian men were killed, and the women and children and old people were forced to march from Turkey to Syria through the desert, uh, out of the country. And so, uh, so after I had written the book, I and I'd gotten it published, I told the publisher, they asked me, so have you ever been there? And I said, well, no, I you know, I'd really like to go before the book's published. And so I did. And so I went and I went with a couple of friends of travel companions from high school, the guys I knew. And we, um, we booked a trip to Turkey and to Syria, and we followed the path that these caravans took when they, when they left, um, uh, left, you know, walked through the desert. And so it was a, um, that part was close to what I had, you know, imagined it would be from the research and that sort of thing. But, uh, but the part in Syria itself. So, so, yeah, we had, you know, booked this through a tour company, and the tour guide got us as far as Antakya in Turkey, which is Antioch from the Bible. Uh, and then they had to transition to a Syrian guide to get us into Syria before

Speaker 2

[00.10.31]

we, uh, before we jump to kind of, uh, that portion of the trip. Let's let's go back to like, the. So, um. Uh, because. Well, well, I'm going to ask you kind of like, okay, like, how did you prepare for the trip? Uh, what was it like getting there? But even before that, I think the historical context that you, you sort of walked through was really important. And, um, you know, you're right. And I didn't know much about the Armenian Genocide. I it popped up more, uh, in the news because some specifically because some countries finally started recognizing it, um, as such, um, in particular Canada. I'm Canadian, so, um, yeah. And at one, um, yeah, it sounds like a, you know, it's a strong and emotional topic when you were and I guess in your background before that portion, I suppose you were researching. So as I said earlier, this is a historical fiction novel, which I love, historical fiction novels because they have the sort of power to bring you to an interesting narrative, but teach you something about real history at the same time. Um, yeah. Like I'd love to know or hear about your process before going there.

Speaker 1

[00.11.46]

Well, I had sort of read everything I could put my hands on and what actually got me going on the whole project was we were hosting a party one night at our house, and a guy came up to me and says, well, hey, you know, are you Armenian? Because if your name is an ion, it's generally a sign. It's a patronym that means son of. And so, you know. So we had it. Think so? I don't really know much about it. He said, well, have you ever read this book, The Black Dog of Fate? And I had not. And so I picked it up and read it. And it's Peter Blackman's book of sort of coming to grips with his Armenian heritage and what happened during this period of time. And so from that, I sort of just kept reading and reading and seeing what I could find out of all things. In the library in Tallahassee, Florida, there was an oral history of survivors of the genocide. And so it was very sort of gripping narrative. I had to take in little bites because some of it is just so horrendous. Yeah, so and so it was a, you know, I, uh, in the book itself, I mean, the structure of the book, without getting too much into it, is that a there's this guy, he's 92 years old, he lives in Georgia in the United States, and he was injured in World War one and lost a lot of his memory then and late in life. He has sort of this brain tumor, and he begins to remember things that happened to him during this period of time. And it was during this, and he was a gendarme. He was a policeman that escorted Turkish policemen, escorted these folks out of the country. And so, uh, so that was sort of the story of it. And I had to try and come up with some humor to balance just what's really difficult material. So, so, so people have read the book and said, yeah, it was kind of funny in places. I said, well, it kind of needed to be because it's so dark and others. But that was that was sort of the background of how, you know, how I got to it.

Speaker 2

[00.13.37]

And um, I think, I don't know if we mentioned this, but, um, the, the genocide itself was based on the backdrop of religious differences. Correct. Uh, Armenians are Christian, and at the time, Turkey, um, which was the Ottoman Empire was Islamic, correct?

Speaker 1

[00.13.57]

Yeah. You know, I hired some. So I used a few Turkish words in the book and I don't speak Turkish. And so I had I had hired, advertised and hired some people to read the book who were graduate students at the university here. And the first, first group, it was a husband and wife, you know, agreed to do it, explain what I'm doing and said, you know, this may be controversial and, you know, but, you know, just want to make sure I'm accurate in that regard. And they brought it back to it a few days later and said, we can't do this. This is too controversial. We could be, you know, we could get in trouble for doing this. And so I said, okay, well, so I found someone else and, and they agreed to do it. And they, they completed it. And again, it was valuable. I got some you know, they. Nuance of the wording was that was the input I wanted, and I asked the guy that did it. I said, well, are you offended by this? And he said, well, not offended, but he goes, In Turkey, people are past this. This is ancient history. There's nothing I can do about it at this point. You know, it's sort of we're moving on. And I said, well, okay, well, you know, maybe easier for you to say than people that suffered during this, but, um, but but that was, you know, that was some of the, you know, you know, part of what, what what into all of it as well.

Speaker 2

[00.15.11]

Very interesting. Okay. Well, thank you for the background and context. Um, all that to say is, uh, I would imagine building up to a trip like this. Like, how are you feeling? Excited, emotional, concerned. Like, uh, there's a lot. So your book was written. You're you you've done all this interesting research, talk to people, read through, as you said, some, um, probably quite difficult oral history. Uh, yeah. So, yeah. How are you feeling going into the trip?

Speaker 1

[00.15.43]

Well, it was just sort of. I mean, first, I was grateful to my friends that went with me that I dragged along on this. And they, you know, it's interesting when we got to Turkey, so we had the same tour guide in Turkey, and it was a woman and she was wonderful. And they they have to undergo a fairly lengthy process to become, you know, almost like a college curriculum to become a tour guide in Turkey. And so she was very knowledgeable, but really did not want to talk about this subject at all. Yeah. I didn't want to, you know, be an awkward situation. And so I just, you know, I mean, we mentioned this is, you know, sort of why I wanted to go here and that sort of thing. And she, you know, really, you know, just didn't, you know, didn't really want to engage on that necessarily, which was, you know, which was okay.

Speaker 2

[00.16.27]

Um, where did you fly into into Turkey.

Speaker 1

[00.16.31]

We flew into, uh, into Istanbul and then, uh, and then, uh, went to Cappadocia and then, uh, I, um. Uh, she rented a car and drove to Antakya from there.

Speaker 2

[00.16.49]

Um, I, I sort of know this, but to sort of paint a picture because I talk to you, it's in, uh, Anatolia. Correct. And so you basically landed on the far west side of the country and made your way, and it's a little past the middle of Turkey, is that correct?

Speaker 1

[00.17.05]

Sort of a third and then sort of south towards, you know, sort of, you know, towards Israel basically. Yeah.

Speaker 2

[00.17.11]

Okay. Great. And that's where the sort of caravan began heading towards Syria. Okay. So you're, you're you're in Antakya. Um, yeah. Take us from there.

Speaker 1

[00.17.26]

All right. So, so the border between Turkey and Syria, there's like, a five kilometer no man's land between them with razor wire and, you know, border border stuff at either end of it. And there are taxis that ferry people back and forth. And so we, you know, and our Turkish guide left us. The Syrian guy is going to meet us on the other side. And so we get in the taxi, get over there to the Syrian side. And one of the guys that was with us, um, had a new passport and I guess new since we had sent all our information into the to set the tour up. And so the Turkish authorities assumed that he had been to what they called occupied Palestine, which is Israel, and was trying to hide it because, you know, if you have an Israeli stamp on your passport, at least at that time, it probably still they would not let you in the country.

Speaker 2

[00.18.23]

Actually, a good point. I don't think we've set the time. So what year is it? Because that's pretty important.

Speaker 1

[00.18.28]

Yeah. This is uh, 2008 was when this was.

Speaker 2

[00.18.31]

Okay. So you're there in 2008. Gotcha.

Speaker 1

[00.18.34]

Yeah. It was interesting. So I went to Israel after that. Years later and noticed they don't they do not stamp your passport in Israel. They give you a little slip of paper. Uh, at least as of five years or so ago.

Speaker 2

[00.18.46]

Oh, I had heard. I mean, my my news is old, too. I had heard about this passport stamping issue. As in, if you flew into Israel and say you went to. I mean, it depends on the time, but another country in the region that was in conflict that this could be an issue. So anyway, you're at the border and your friend has a new passport and they're

Speaker 1

[00.19.08]

they're concerned at the border for like three hours. And eventually he has to go back. They will not let him in. Oh, no. So so we meet up with our guide at that point and continue on and so, so and you know, it's getting, you know, later than we had planned. But we I wanted to see the Citadel, which is the is sort of the, uh. In Aleppo in Syria. And it's this really remarkable thing that sits up on a hill above, you know, the whole city. And it was, you know, supposedly this was where, you know, dates back to the Bible, where Abraham milked his cow on the top of this hill. And so it's meaningful to Muslims, it's meaningful to Christians. And there's this remarkable citadel that was built. I don't remember the actual year, but supposedly it was only stormed once in history. And so, uh, and I had described it in the book because it's a very, you know, the the this is the Aleppo was the city where the Armenian caravans ended up basically in Syria. And so I wanted to be accurate about the description in particular. Hey, I've seen pictures of this, you know, but I'd like to see it for myself. And so and, and I was very happy that we did this because it was, you know, I was close in the descriptions but not quite. And even the door to the, to the Citadel was a little different than what I had expected. And so my, my friends that were there and I, we were laughing so, well, you know, the, the trial lawyers haven't made it here yet because you could climb all up and down and that thing, there's ladders and nobody cared.

Speaker 2

[00.20.44]

So just some lawyer jokes. Yeah.

Speaker 1

[00.20.47]

So it was a you know, it was really and you know, our guide was good and and we, you know, we, we we went all over the thing and so, uh, so, so and then afterwards we went to, um, he took us down to the Armenian quarter of, of Aleppo and we, uh, we sort of walked into a Armenian church service that was going on. So it was really a, you know, I was very grateful that I got to do it. It was really, you know, it was helpful to the book. Um, and, and so, so and I think, you know, I think made the book more real hopefully to, to, to readers of it. Um. So so so then there was the exit from Syria, which was, you know, was not without issue itself. Before

Speaker 2

[00.21.31]

we get to the exit, I feel like I got a backlog of a few questions here. Um, I quickly looked the Citadel apparently has been being has been used since like 3000 BC. Now, whether or not that had a built citadel on it is, you know, debatable, but used as a citadel, I think looks like between the 12th and 13th centuries BC. So it's ancient, um, a very, very long time. Um, one question I had the I know, uh, the route sort of that, uh, march, if you will walk march between Turkey and Syria. Um, I it's desert between there like that portion of your trip. Was there any stops or what did it look like to you was that, you know, interesting to sort of take in for, for the book as well? Yeah. I

Speaker 1

[00.22.26]

mean, it it sort of reminded me of Arizona, you know, that sort of landscapes. It was similar, you know, in that regard. And um, and yeah, I mean, it's just, you know, and it's a long way. Uh, so, so you could just imagine people walking this, you know, uh, you know, and having to camp out in the desert and that sort of thing. I mean, it was a, you know, it's a very, you know, it would have been difficult under any circumstances. And these were mostly women and children.

Speaker 2

[00.22.53]

Yeah, yeah. Um, I know that like, temperature changes are massive or can be massive as well. So just, uh, again, um, it must have been interesting to see that firsthand.

Speaker 1

[00.23.08]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, the whole just that, you know, the, the, um, uh, just the whole interplay between the religions and, you know, so in Cappadocia, for those who've been there, I mean, that's where they had the, uh, the cave people, the Christians, you know, they had these caves that they could hide in when persecution came and that sort of thing. And so we actually we stayed in a, a cave hotel that they had, you know, sort of made out of these, um, places. And they again, people were shorter back then. So I kept scraping my top of my head on the, on the cave ceiling. Uh, but, uh, but yeah. So the whole area is pretty fascinating just from a, you know, sort of cradle of civilization standpoint.

Speaker 2

[00.23.51]

Oh, yes, I did a little deep, actually. There's a great project podcast on, uh, Byzantium and that whole basically all of what is today modern day Turkey was just always in flux of different groups for, for, for very long. So like the history there is, is quite amazing. Um, but I digress. Uh, so then jumping back to, to Syria. Um, and specifically in Aleppo was there. So I hadn't read too much about the Citadel, and now it just I would love to see it as well. Pictures. Pictures seemed quite stunning, just because it kind of just juts up there in the middle of the city. Um, so funny that you mentioned it. I always love visiting. Um, it's mostly historical or, you know, ancient civilization style places where you can actually explore them a little bit versus, hey, here's everything is gated off. You can go in the middle of this room, look around, and then kind of get out.

Speaker 1

[00.24.55]

Exactly. It sounded

Speaker 2

[00.24.57]

like you had that experience at the Citadel. Sort of looking right. How big is it? Like, I don't have a good sense for for

Speaker 1

[00.25.04]

it because it just big. Yeah. And so, I mean, it's a, you know, it's not just I pictured like a citadel as being like this sort of, you know, narrow fort. No, this thing is like on a mesa top. So it's a it's a big, you know, I mean, you know, if you were to walk all the way around the outside on the bottom, you know, you'd have a long walk. I mean, it's a it's a big place. Um.

Speaker 2

[00.25.28]

And, uh, I know we talked about it, too. You were very fortunate. Um, timing wise, you mentioned 2008. I know a lot's changed since there. Uh. Since then. Sorry. Um, and the status of the Citadel right now might be very different than what you saw, was it? Yeah. Like, what was the. What was the shape of the Citadel in 2008?

Speaker 1

[00.25.51]

Well, I mean it, you know, it needed work, in fact. You know, I have a I bought a t shirt that says Save the Citadel. You know, they were they were, you know, soliciting donations there to, you know, because this was so unique, you know, such a unique part of history. But and I had never heard until I started this whole project. I never heard of the city of Aleppo. Uh, but it became a very, uh, recognizable place. You know, during the, um, you know, over the last ten years because of the sort of civil wars within Syria. And I don't know if you remember, there was one candidate for president whose name is escaping me. But somebody asked him, what about Aleppo? And he didn't know where it was, and it sort of sunk his campaign. So, so, so the came of really, you know, sort of a touch point and, and I knew the Citadel had been, you know, had had, you know, suffered some damage through that because it was bombing and just, you know, Aleppo was a, you know, constant fighting there and which was, you know, sad because the, you know, beyond the Citadel, I mean, the city we thought was very, you know, very cool. You know, it just had, you know, a nice restaurants, you know, that we went and smoked hookah, you know, some, you know, some place there. And so it was all, you know, it was all pretty good. So, so I, I don't know what its current status is, but it was it suffered some since I was there.

Speaker 2

[00.27.10]

Yeah. They had the after

Speaker 1

[00.27.13]

that. Unfortunately they also had the, there was a large earthquake. Right. Basically on the border of where you must have passed through. Um, I think that was the epicenter, but quite, quite close to Aleppo. Um, so.

Speaker 2

[00.27.27]

Yeah. I mean, uh, I guess you were there in better days, and hopefully they returned because it sounds like a very interesting place.

Speaker 1

[00.27.34]

Yeah, it really, really was. I mean, people were friendly. I mean, it was a, you know, I don't think there were even then there were a lot of American tourists. So we were, you know, sort of, you know, felt felt fortunate to, to be there.

Speaker 2

[00.27.46]

Yeah. I was reading too, apparently at the time in the region, it was one of the top, like Syria in particular, was one of the top tourist destinations. It was a very normal place to go and visit. Um, which yeah, I mean for the past decade, not the case. Um, very interesting. Uh, you mentioned the Citadel and then going to an Armenian church. How did this, like, how did this connect or how did this city connect with, with your book and what you had researched?

Speaker 1

[00.28.17]

Well, so in the book's in my book said the gendarme escorts these people out of the country and they end up in Aleppo. And some people, you know, the history on this. And again, it's so sad, is that a number of survivors that made it to Aleppo got shipped out into another part of the desert in Syria and basically massacred. And so, so, so you were, you know, those that either managed to stay in Aleppo or get out somewhere else where the survivors and other, you know, there was a whole nother death experience, you know, in Syria once people made it there. So it's very, very, you know, an awful part of history. Um, and so but they're still in Armenian. Yeah. It's interesting. There's still an Armenian quarter in Aleppo. There were Armenian churches, as I mentioned. So it was a you know, it's still a, you know, somewhat of a thriving, you know, Armenian presence there and really not much of one in Turkey to this day. Yeah. There were, you know, my, my book was, uh, you know, there's, there's a country of Armenia that, you know, it was part of the Soviet Union. And then when that broke apart, it became its own country. And I was I got invited to speak there after the book was published. And that's a very, very interesting place. And, uh, but but, but but their relationship with Turkey is still fraud. And they're, uh, there just aren't a lot of, uh, aren't a lot of Armenians still in Turkey? Uh, it's very, very small compared to what it was. Um,

Speaker 2

[00.29.47]

yeah. Uh, okay. So I, I took us on a bit of a tangent here, but you had visited the Citadel, you had experienced the Armenian Church. You've learned some important tidbits for your book, kind of giving it context and seeing a bit of the culture. You were saying, uh, on your way out of the country, um, you were moving towards your your exit before I started asking questions.

Speaker 1

[00.30.12]

Well. Yes, sir. Our our Syrian guide, you know, drops us at the at the border. Um, you know, we say goodbye, I get in a taxi to, you know, to go across the no man's land back to Turkey, and we get out to sort of the last, you know, there's a, you know, bar barring further traffic and they turn our taxi around and told us to go back. And so we, you know, we go, you know, back to the Border Patrol station, we get out of the taxi, go inside. I remember and I guess, you know, we might have been naive at this point because I think they were probably looking for a bribe of some sort. But the border official, I remember taking our passports and throwing them down on the desk, and the taxi driver, who had to be all of 19 years old, was arguing on our behalf. And we're, you know, in Arabic that we're understanding none of. So this went on for a while and, and and you know, finally we, you know, we go back, you get back in the taxi, go back out to the gate. Still don't open, still had to turn around and go back again. So so the whole thing repeats itself. And then one more time we go back, the gate opens and we're like, oh, thank goodness we're, you know, we're on our way to Turkey. And so we get to Turkey and we're so scarred by that experience. And then we get to the Border Patrol there. We get, you know, get out of the taxi. Thank you. We're walking on and people are speaking to us and we're like, keep your head down, just keep walking. And finally, it's like the Turkish guards say, hey, you know, you have to respond to us. Don't be, you know, so we we we made it through. And then we met our our Turkish tour guide was still there. And so she met us. So it was a it was it was a fine trip into the trip, but it was just, you know, it was very interesting experience that, uh, you know, I've been fortunate to go places that a lot of Americans either don't want to go or are afraid to go to. And it's a it's easier if you're a male, you know, and I, I've, uh, you know, I less worry less about security than maybe than if I were a woman. But, uh, but also, it's sort of, you know, I don't know, it's interesting. I almost always found people friendly, you know, and it's not it ends up not being exactly what you think. And went to Saudi Arabia last year, and, uh, we had a woman tour guide in a burka who drove us around in her car. I mean, it was a it was, you know, it was different than what we expected.

Speaker 2

[00.32.35]

Yeah. Um, I found that as well. Uh, generally the folks, uh, regular everyday folks are super friendly. Pretty much everywhere I've gone. I don't think there's a shortage of border stories out there as, like, a place of conflict or concern or challenges. Have heard all sorts of things. Um, it's kind of funny that they. Play the sort of back and forth game with you guys. You know, um, making you wait. Uh, nothing worse than spending, as you said, three hours on the way in and gosh knows how long. On the way out. To your point. Uh, was there anything like what surprised you between Syria and Turkey, those countries, while you were there?

Speaker 1

[00.33.23]

Well, I don't you know, the, um, it's interesting how some topics are are off limits. Yeah. So, so in Syria, it was military. I mean, our guide was we were passing some, you know, something as we said. Well, hey, you know, what is that? You know, and he's a he's very it's not military. It's not military. I'm like, well we didn't we didn't care if it was. We didn't know. But but it's very much an off off the, you know, you know, not to be talked about. Yeah. And in Turkey it was you know, the Armenian you know the issue was not to be talked about. And then somebody, one of the guys I was with made a joke about the movie Midnight Express, and that was not to be talked about either. So. That was just a, you know, because we passed a prison. Oh, it's like Midnight Express. No no no no. Then so so anyway, that was, that was sort of interesting too, where you know, if you come to the US. I mean, I don't really think there's things that we, we don't want people to talk about. I mean, it is what it is. So, so that was a little bit. Yeah a little bit different.

Speaker 2

[00.34.28]

Yeah. I mean I think there's definitely sensitive topics anywhere. Um, you don't get in as much, uh, actual trouble in the US, but, you know, you get people heated. Um, you bring up politics pretty much any day, and you're, you're tend to run into some trouble. Although you won't be in any physical or you won't be in an unsafe place. And I know depending on where you are in the world, there's topics you don't talk about because you know, you don't want to be put in jail or something like that. But

Speaker 1

[00.34.57]

yeah, well, I've noticed the guides in other countries are very careful in dealing with Americans about talking about politics and sort of or non-committal and, you know, and every now and then they'll get what do you think about Trump? I'm like. You need to talk to my friends here. I'll pass on that one.

Speaker 2

[00.35.16]

I play the the Canadian card on those conversations a lot. You know, like, this is, uh, you guys can figure it out. Although the longer I'm here, you know, the more I'm in the mix. Um, so. Okay, so you you made it. You made it out of Syria? Um, yeah. I mean, the rest of the trip, it was it just, you know, you were on your way out and on your way home or anything else?

Speaker 1

[00.35.41]

Yeah, I think we flew back from. So we flew out of, uh, Antakya, uh, and then made our way back, uh, and so, so, uh, so, yeah. So it was a it is a very successful trip. I've done, you know, I've tried to do others with other books, you know, in terms of research. I have a book that I'm working on that's set in, uh, in what's called late antiquity, which is like the, you know, the sort of the end of the Roman Empire. And so I had, you know, traveled to Italy a number of times now and, and just, you know, just, you know, again, for the reasons we talked about, it's a it's a super helpful thing to actually be there and talk to people, you know, just get a feel for it that more than just, you know, you know, as great as reading is and reading it in a book,

Speaker 2

[00.36.26]

I love that, um, you know, I aspire to do something like that someday. Um, but combining travel with another pleasure, um, especially when you can create something and share it with others is is amazing. Um, I'm, I'm. I definitely am going. I haven't checked out your book as an I haven't read your book yet, but I'm, I'm super, super interested. And as I said, I find historical fiction allows you to learn a bit of history, but be immersed in a, in a story that, you know, that might just draw you in, in characters that might draw you in a little bit more. So, um, yeah, I hope you, uh, I hope you keep it up and keep checking out new places. Are you, uh, what do you have planned travel wise going forward?

Speaker 1

[00.37.13]

Where I'm going to Argentina and Uruguay and next month. And I've been to. I've been to Buenos Aires before, but never to the wine country there, and I've not been to. Montevideo or so. So that'll be fun. My wife and and some other friends are going there and then going to Rwanda this summer with my daughter. Oh, wow. It would be fun. Going hiking in Bosnia this fall. So that should be fun. So, yeah, there's a while I can do it. I got a bunch on the table

Speaker 2

[00.37.41]

here. Yeah, I was going to say after 90 countries, too, it's probably getting pretty difficult to not repeat. Are you, uh, are you still searching out just new places you've never been? That's still a kind of priority, if you will.

Speaker 1

[00.37.56]

Well, yes and no. So my wife and I are different. And this. I have some, like, an explorer gene. I want to go places I haven't been, you know, and see different things. And she is more, you know, find someplace she likes and wants to go back there. And so we've sort of, you know, managed to work it out to to some degree. But yeah, there's still a lot of places I haven't seen. I was supposed to go to Russia, uh, right before the Ukraine stuff happened. I had to cancel the, you know, the train and hotels and everything. So, you know, I don't know that. I don't know if I'll be able to get there ever. So that's sort of a sad thing. I'd like to be able to go, but yeah, there's there's still a lot of places to go. I'm still, uh. And I'd like to, you know, while I can do it, I have these buddies that we generally try and do hiking somewhere every year. So we went to Republic of Georgia, which was beautiful. It went to Romania, which is fine. So, yeah. So it's, you know, as long as I can do it, I'm going to keep doing

Speaker 2

[00.38.52]

it. I love to hear it. I love to hear it. I think I have, uh, I think I have the, the same gene as you. Uh, for better or for worse, I think for better, though, it's, uh, a there's something, um, something that happens in my brain when I'm exploring somewhere new. I guess it's happiness is what you call it. But, um, before I forget and before we wrap, I was curious, uh, and I wrote it down. What happened to your friend that didn't get let in? Did he just hang out in Turkey and wait for you guys?

Speaker 1

[00.39.22]

He did. So. So he was a, uh, was a community college president. And so he, you know, he went to the community college and, you know, just told him who he was and ended up meeting with the president there in Antakya. So he, you know, he made a day of it by himself there. Uh, but, uh, but we gave him a hard time when we got back and said, yeah, and you missed it. Man, that's,

Speaker 2

[00.39.48]

uh that's tough. Well, you know, tougher too, because it would have been harder to, to repeat, uh, in the years that followed. But hopefully that person has will get back there someday if they haven't already. Um, Mark, thank you so much for for coming on and sharing. It's it's really been a pleasure. Um, to hear a little bit about your your story.

Speaker 1

[00.40.09]

Yeah. Same here. Andrea, thanks so much for having me. I really enjoyed it.

Speaker 2

[00.40.13]

Yeah. Me too. Have a great rest of your day.

Speaker 1

[00.40.16]

You too. Thanks.

Speaker 2

[00.40.18]

A big thank you to Mark for joining the podcast and telling his travel story. A tough, very difficult topic to research and write about, but an amazing and interesting place of the world to visit. If you're interested in checking out Mark's books, please find his website. Mark Mustaine. His last name is must a N, and if you've got an amazing travel story that you want to share, please find me at one off Travel stories.com.